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[This story contains major spoilers from the season four finale of The Morning Show.]

The Morning Show made good on a daunting promise when it opened its season four finale with Reese Witherspoon‘s Bradley Jackson being detained. After previously evading federal punishment for her complicity in Jan. 6 riot coverage because she struck a deal with the U.S. government, the TMS anchor ended season four imprisoned in Belarus over a story she has been investigating throughout the entire season.

Showrunner Charlotte Stoudt says the real-life Russian imprisonment of Wall Street Journal foreign correspondent Evan Gershkovich largely inspired the storyline, which on the Apple TV+ series saw Bradley being tortured in a cell with blaring lights, head-thumping music and little food or place to lay her head. “But what we read from Evan Gershkovich and even Brittney Griner [the WNBA All Star detained in Russia], honestly, Bradley’s cell was nice by comparison,” Stoudt tells The Hollywood Reporter. “She had an okay situation compared to what happens to these very high-profile prisoners. Bradley was in Belarus, but Russia does not mess around.”

In the end, they couldn’t break Bradley Jackson. And thanks to a Herculean effort from the rest of the ensemble with a coup from Alex (Jennifer Aniston), her father Martin (Jeremy Irons) and Bradley’s ex Cory (Billy Crudup), the UBN team publicly exposes C-suite boss Celine (Marion Cotillard) for her role in the cover-up Bradley was investigating, ultimately pushing Celine out of the top office (and the country), and returning Bradley to the U.S. after 35 days detained. The season ended with Alex and Bradley embracing once again, this time on a tarmac with the futures for them and many others in the ensemble open and unknown.

Below, Stoudt answers THR‘s burning questions on all of that, including filming Witherspoon’s stripped-down torture scenes, if there’s a future for Alex and Jon Hamm’s Paul Marks, whether or not Greta Lee’s Stella could make a return in the already renewed season five, if Cotillard’s days on The Morning Show are over, and much more.

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Now that I’ve seen the finale, I understand why you didn’t begin this season with a detained Bradley Jackson after she turned herself in last season finale. During her detainment in Belarus here, Reese Witherspoon was physically stripped down, and Bradley was beaten down. Can you talk about the prep and conversations with Reese to portray Bradley as a prisoner?

I love Reese because she’s so willing to go there. You know the Reese of Wild and the incredible rawness of that performance, and how she can span from that to Elle Woods. She’s so extraordinary that way. Part of the language of this show is that it feeds off of her and Jen [Aniston] and how they inhabit their characters. So we really didn’t talk that much. You’re always worried about staying in the same show, in terms of the style. So we did keep the filmmaking very simple in the sequences, so you didn’t feel like you had moved into a different genre.

What motivated this storyline most for you?

We had been thinking about Evan Gershkovich for a long time and that we wanted to say something. There were periods where, especially in the early part of the Gaza conflict, we were hearing of so many reporters either being killed, injured or captured, and about this new hostage diplomacy that can involve journalists. We wanted to touch on what was happening everywhere. And you are right, ultimately everything on this show is character-logical. So it was like, “Is Bradley going to do time?” But the question was, “Where and how?” Everyone asked me between seasons, “Is Bradley going to wear an orange jumpsuit?” Since that was the expectation, it was like, “How can we subvert that?”

How long were you filming Bradley’s torture scenes in the Belarus detention center? And what was set like on those days?

I think it was one day, actually. One very intense day that may not have been Reese’s favorite day on set! [Production designer] Nelson Coates did such an incredible job on the set. It was this really awful green. We were interested in the lights. When you hear about these places, you can’t sleep, you can’t close your eyes. It’s always lit. A lot of times, they just pound the music through for weeks at a time. So just the idea of being able to withstand that seems pretty daunting. But, she’s tough! I wanted to show her scene with the Commandant who was running that detention center that you can’t break Bradley Jackson.

I knew when he turned over the napkin he was going to see Bradley wrote “Fuck you.” She never caves, despite the torture, or gives up her source.

Maybe that was not such a surprise! But she just can’t give it to him. This is a very tough woman. She’s grown up in this family of addicts with not a lot of money. You can’t break her that easily.

When Bradley is detained, the show flashed back to Bradley and Cory sleeping together to show this vulnerable, intimate moment between them. This season didn’t use as many flashbacks as as you usually do. Why did you want to show this moment now?

If Cory’s mother hadn’t done what she did [and assisted in her own death], he’d be more focused and able to see what was going on around him, because he’s such an operator. We felt like for Celine to continue moving forward, he would need to be off his game in a profound way. I was also very interested in the idea of choosing your own death. I think that will become more of a question boomers face in the end, so it was important to tell that story of how a woman might make that decision for herself [with Cory’s mother, played by Lindsay Duncan].

Cory is totally off his game and one of the things he gets to learn is that if you’re really serious about someone you love, the closer you get, they’re going to disappoint you and do the wrong things. He has to be shaken out of his fugue state by Chip [Mark Duplass] confronting him about Bradley for Cory to realize, “I’m mad at her, but she told me, ‘I don’t know how to do this. Relationships are hard for me. I’m going to mess up, and a condition of going forward is: Please recognize that I’m human and I’m gonna mess up and I’m not your fantasy.’”

In the moment, he told her, “Yes, of course I’ll accept that.” And he makes the joke saying, “I look forward to disappointing you.” Then he realizes it wasn’t a joke. He did disappoint her. Because his anger has blocked him from really engaging with what’s happening to her [when she’s detained]. So that flashback was for him to go, “I made a promise to her that I kind of broke, and I have to now address that.”

Cory has a lightbulb moment this finale, when things circle back to the beginning to fill in how he landed at UBN to start. Was telling more of Cory’s story something you always wanted to do, or did it come when breaking season four?

We were always interested in bringing Claire [Bel Powley] back. The show in so many ways is about: How do you make change? Alex says you do it from the inside. Bradley says, maybe you have to do it from the outside. Claire is even further out going, “You have to blow things up. The system doesn’t work.” What would happen to someone like Claire Conway if she couldn’t get justice for Hannah [Gugu Mbatha-Raw] in a conventional legal way? We also always wondered how Cory was president of entertainment and then became head of news.

I never even spoke to [former showrunner] Kerry Ehrin about it, but we were always like, “Huh, that’s interesting.” Around that time, the Mitch [Steve Carell] thing was happening. Even though everybody loves Cory and is fascinated with him, and loves to see him play chutes and ladders, he is someone who really hasn’t questioned his privilege or his rise, or if other people could have played some part in it. He says to his mother, “Well, I’ve never asked that question because, you know — me!” So in the world of people going, “I thought I knew who I was, but maybe I don’t,” or “I thought I could see things clearly, but actually, I don’t,” we were just looking for a way thematically for him to undergo his own perception about himself. That was a big theme this season — perception and trust and deepfakes; a misrecognition of a situation. I was always curious why he had both those jobs.

Cory helps to save the day with Bradley. Alex is the one who physically comes to her rescue, but, assuming Bradley will eventually find out about Cory’s self-sacrificial role in her return, are Cory and Bradley endgame? Can they can work back to each other?

It’s funny you ask that, because it’s a question we are literally working through right now.

Are you in the writers room now working on season five?

Yeah, we have been in the room for a few months. It’s a big cast, so it just it takes a while to chip away. With Bradley and Cory, are they twin flames? Are they mirrors of each other and have similar pathologies? Generally, you’re not endgame with your twin flame. Your twin flame is somebody who shows you your pathology so you can address that and move onto a possibly better fit. So we’re talking about that right now, and it’s hard because they have an incredible intimacy on screen that’s very delightful to write and to watch.

The idea of letting them go is very difficult, because they have this connection. There’s something they drop into that I think they would both find very difficult to give up — that immediate closeness, even though it’s very charged and messy. They are not people who are intimate with many other characters. That’s what makes them similar. They sort of wall themselves off a little bit, and then wonder why they’re unhappy.

Last season, Bradley was the one whose legal future was in question. Now I ask you the same question for Cory: How much trouble is he in? Is it feasible for him to ever be walking the halls of UBN again?

He is coming forward and raising his hand. Were he to not do that, and for his somewhat blurry role in this to be discovered [it might be worse], but he is raising his hand so I think that will probably serve him well. He’s getting ahead of it to the extent he can. He is doing the right thing, and yes, he’s rescuing Bradley, but everybody’s rescuing Bradley; it’s a group effort with Mia, Alex, Chip and even [Alex’s dad] Martin. So it’s Cory, but also everyone.

This is the second season in a row you end with an Alex and Bradley hug. So much has happened between these hugs. Last season, you said that moment solidified their closeness as the heart of the show. Where do these women go from here for season five?

They are ride or die. There’s no question about that. But they’re always going to disagree on the way to do things. That is their fundamental tension. We’ve only ever seen Alex be a part of this larger system. So even though there’s ultimately this, “I will protect you,” or “I will have your back,” there’s a lot of crunch left between them, especially in the environment we’re in right now. They’re going to have very strong opinions on what choices to make. They’re still going to have a lot of arguments. They’re never going to fundamentally decide, “We’ve agreed now.” There’s always going to be a tension, which is why they’re drawn to each other.

It’s an obvious thing to say, but I feel people do need to feel hope on that tarmac. It’s dark out there, and you can’t see beyond the runway; everything’s in the shadows. But as long as these two women have each other, they’ll be okay. It doesn’t matter how dark the world might become for a time, they’ll always be there for each other. Just saying a simple thing like that actually has some value.

Celine gets her public downfall in the end, but then we see her on a private plane heading back to her family. This proves the thesis you told me you and Marion Cotillard spoke about in the beginning, how women in these dynasty families get sacrificed and the men are elevated. What do the repercussions look like for Celine, and is this the end of her on The Morning Show?

I think she’s going to have to spend some time on the penalty box. I always say, with any character, that unless they’re dead, they could someday come back. It’s possible. The reality is these people don’t go to jail. There was a certain French dynastic family who did some trading with some sanctioned nations and had to pay a very giant, almost billion-dollar fine, and that’s what happens. They pay their way out of it. It’s very infrequent that anybody does any time.

Celine remains extremely privileged, but she’s still a woman in a man’s world. You may think she’s evil, and she permitted some pretty awful things on her watch with this chemical company that will always be on her. On this show we explore how we’re all subject to certain forces that seem a little bit beyond our control, so what choices are you going to make in the face of these forces? Often the only thing to do to keep your integrity is to completely walk away. But then you have no voice, no relevance and no power.

So are you going to let Marion Cotillard walk away, or do you feel like you have more you could do with Celine?

I’m not even trying to be coy. It’s still too early. I’m not sure yet. But listen, it was astonishing to have her show up every day as one of the cast members. She was so game. She just got to work, nothing fancy. She came in and wanted to do good scenes and have fun with people. She fit right in so quickly and effortlessly, despite being this giant, transcendent movie star. She just got down in the mud real quick.

When I spoke with her, it also sounded like she had a great time.

That’s good to hear. You’re always worried. It’s like you’re throwing a party and like, “Was it fun?” You feel that way with everybody, and this year we had such a crazy guest cast. We were very fortunate to have some of those folks with us.

Also at the end, Mia (Karen Pittman) is elevated to the top office.

Well, not really.

You’re right — she hasn’t moved into that office. She’s up there, imagining moving in.

I’m glad you brought that up. The dust is settling in this situation, and it will for a while. The Stella-Mia story is one that goes across the season even after Stella is gone. Who should have that job? Where do these women belong? And how is that litigated through this friendship that breaks open this season?

I don’t think they picked anyone for the chariot. It’s more that Mia had her heart on head of news: “If I just get that, then all my dreams come true, and all this steady work I’ve been doing for this company and all this shit I’ve eaten will be worth it.” Then when she didn’t get that, she was like, “I’ve had a certain mindset and maybe that’s wrong.”

Stella gives Mia many gifts on the way out. One is a little dirt to help her negotiate. But an idea that Mia is suddenly able to have is, “Maybe I was chasing the wrong chair. Maybe head of news was too small of a chair. Maybe I want the big chair. Why don’t I walk into that office and see how it feels to touch that desk.” I think she’s saying, “I had the wrong dream. Maybe I need to scale up.” As she says, she’s in her villain era, so she’s like, “Maybe I could have it all.” But it’s still a wish for her.

How would Mia run things differently than the people before her, who so epically crashed and burned?

We haven’t gotten there yet, but I always feel like Mia is the single most competent person. She works really hard. A lot of the women who both write and watch the show really get Mia. Mia just fucking shows up and is deeply competent. Now we’re getting into five seasons of the show, and, do people learn anything? That’s the question. I think she would certainly try to do it differently. She has a unique perspective, but there’s always the pressure of having to answer to the shareholders.

That job on some level is both thrilling and a total nightmare, because you have to appease everyone and that’s exhausting. You’re stuck between, “Do I want to do something interesting, or do I want to save money and have the stock price go up?” There’s always a tension between Wall Street and your own vision, but I think she’s been there long enough that she would certainly be aware of what she was walking into. All these crises — Mitch, the merger. She would be well-armed. But no one is going to just say, “Mia, here’s the chair. It’s yours.” People will still be fighting over that chair.

I spoke with Greta Lee after I spoke with you about Stella’s exit, and Greta was honest about her stepping away being her decision. She sounded open to coming back for a few episodes, similar to Jon Hamm this season. Are you trying to think of a way to bring Stella back?

It’s hard to know how long this show could go on. And as you say, this year in season four, we were like, “Alex and Paul [Hamm] need to go off and do different things. They’re not ready to try it again, because they need to have other experiences and learn something.” So I think if Stella were to come back, I’d want to be completely surprised by what she was doing, and see that she’d had enough time to reinvent herself in a super, surprising way.

Everybody adores Greta and adores writing for her. I really enjoyed digging into this Mia-Stella story and what happens when two people who are very close have a conflict like this, especially two women. Can they stay human in this environment or is it going to tear them apart because of forces of ambition, capitalism and Stella’s big, fat secret [of her affair with Celine’s husband]? Stella unfortunately blows up Mia’s life, but then it also creates this space.

Each season you typically write yourself into an impossible corner. This season, it feels like you left yourself an open runway to take the show anywhere. Will you do a similar time jump? Does it feel like there are several possibilities?

This show is about the news and the tension of who tells the story, and what kind of story they tell. Because you have to set it in the near past when it comes out, it’s a zeitgeist show where we’re trying to really express what it’s like to be alive and alert to what’s going on in America. Obviously, we’ve gone through a huge change recently [with the election], and there’s a lot of fallout. But this show is not just about the White House. Everything’s changing; AI is coming in more. There’s more mergers and takeovers, and the place is consolidating. News is changing fast, so I think there’s a big wide world.

The presence of billionaires has always been there, but they are beginning to encroach on politics and media less quietly and have such a large footprint on what’s going on. They have so much impact on people doing acquaint things like trying to tell the truth. This show is about showing the larger picture. How are things shifting and how does that make life difficult for our characters?

Since the pandemic, it’s unsteady. You can’t quite get your footing. That’s what I feel from people. This sense of, is there a future? Some people think it’s AI and to put all your money there, and others are like, “I don’t want to go back to work. The whole idea of climbing the ladder is a ridiculous notion, and is there even going to be a job to go to in 10 years?” We’re still living in a sense of uncertainty that’s actually very good for drama. So it’s about capturing that feeling, which crosses a lot of worlds, not just politics, but also how we’re living; like the fact that young people do AI vision boards and imagine themselves winning Nobel Prizes. The world’s moving very quickly. It’s fun to see these characters try to catch up.

The Morning Show has been renewed for season five, and goes into production in January. How many seasons do you see the show going?

These people have not learned everything they need to know about themselves. There are still areas where they haven’t integrated things into their personalities, and are still reaching. Alex’s relation to power was, “What do I need to feel like I truly have a voice and power? I thought it was in the C-suite.” Now she’s like, “That’s not where I belong.” That’s a very common question: How can women actually have some control over their lives?

Bradley hasn’t found a place to belong. She’s always split between New York and West Virginia. Cory’s like, “Is my mother right? Am I unlovable? Can I ever be close to somebody? And now this person I was close to is now gone.” They’re just like us. Can they get their shit together? Can they figure out what they could be better at? Can they think differently about themselves? And that is what every show has to be about in the end. Can a character move forward and become smarter? An attempt to either find their mission or find some contentment, and once they do that, then the story is over.

I inherited these characters. They’re very stubborn people, they don’t want to learn; they want to just keep doing. When you write them, they resist you. They resist their eurekas. Cory had to confront this thing about his mother, and face what people are going to think about him publicly, but he’s still going to be like, “What am I making? Where’s my status? Where am I on the ladder?” That’s a compulsive thing he has that I don’t think is going to go away just because he raised his hand and said, “This company is doing a bad thing.” I think he’s going to keep barreling through. He will always be closing. Will there come a point where he doesn’t need to close something? That might take longer.

We also have new characters like Bro [played by Boyd Holbrook]. With Chris [Nicole Beharie], we’ve barely scratched the surface. Yanko [Néstor Carbonell], there’s always another card to turn over, and he’s such a wonderful actor. There are a lot of stories left to tell. The joy of the ensemble means you can keep keep digging. I always feel like people’s first seasons are a character introduction, and then you start scratching the next season. They show up and you go, “Here’s the picture. What’s underneath?”

How have you been finding the reception to this season?

I try to engage minimally, especially when you’re thinking about a new season. It’s very distracting. I’m happy for people to write and say whatever they want. Once you make it, it becomes the audiences’ and it’s not yours anymore, and that’s all good. There are small things that are satisfying, like when I hear that people really responded to Chris’ interview in episode five. When we really labored on and were very difficult and demanding on the actors; I’m happy to see when actors and the writers dig deep and are recognized for doing so. People really went to the bottom of the well with the finale, so I like to hear that it was resonant with the audience.

Have you thought about Alex and Paul Marks’ relationship for season five?

I think that dance is not over, that’s for sure. They barely started to have a relationship in season three. It was very fast. It was sort of a collision. What would it look like if they were together for a long time? Alex has not been partnered for a long time. We saw that her marriage in the earlier seasons was entirely performative. So she hasn’t really let someone in deeply yet for a long, extended time. What would it look like if she really tried to do that? What happens if she made an actual effort?

Do you think you’ll release season five this time next year?

I think so. I haven’t spoken to Apple about any release dates, but between season three and four there was a writers strike, so that was quite a long delay. So without that this year, maybe we’ll move a little more quickly. That’s when I knock on wood!

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The Morning Show season four is now streaming on Apple TV+.